Mafia 2 GAME OVER, WOLVES AND THE JERK WIN

J Assassin · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 7:59 am

bluecoat wrote:

On the topic of prodding: I didn't want to prod because I didn't want to make anyone post. I knew J@nr0k was checking, I figured Jackstick was just being Jackstick. Lurking is annoying as hell, but for J@nr0k it served a purpose, as it did for Jack. What if Jackstick was lurking because he had a role and wanted to survive? It was annoying as hell, but I can tell you that he wasn't targeted by J@nr0k for anything but a frame. Both players knew they were in the game, so I didn't want to influence the outcome by ending their charades..

So instead of giving the village a chance, you let the mafia take control 100%. There's not influencing the game, and then there's giving the village a snowball's chance, because the only way the village was going to win by that point was if J@nrok came out and said he was mafia and voted for himself.

Paidea · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 8:48 am

There is a simple way to dissuade people from lurking... I explain it in chapter 37 of my book "The Metagame". :weird:

Hint: pressure them early on. Tweedy has a good grasp of this. And if you're a townie, you should never be lurking (or in this case, forgetting about the game). Such is a perfect recipe for failure.

~Paidea

Scar · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 9:07 am

Landerpurex wrote:

Other stuff goes here...

I agree, but as soon as one or maybe two of the mentioned people are found, the game is compromised. IMHO, in such a situation, deleting or editing a post is completely ok. If the person's post is going to compromise the game, or even greatly alter it, it warrants deletion so that everyone can continue playing as if it didn't happen. ESPECIALLY if it's really late at night and it's very probable that no one else saw.

What's to stop someone from just posting a random list of people? I could choose to "out myself" as a Mafia member and list 4 or 5 names that weren't actually Mafia members and chances are that after the town lynched me they would kill at least one person on that list, or they would think I was a liar and not follow it at all.

Those lists can compromise the game yes, but just because someone posts a list of names after they are found to be Mafia doesn't mean they are telling the truth. Didn't something like this happen in Fire and Ice with Kikori?

--- --- --- ---

Anyways, what was said in the deleted post?

Jackstick · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 10:03 am

J Assassin wrote:

bluecoat wrote:

On the topic of prodding: I didn't want to prod because I didn't want to make anyone post. I knew J@nr0k was checking, I figured Jackstick was just being Jackstick. Lurking is annoying as hell, but for J@nr0k it served a purpose, as it did for Jack. What if Jackstick was lurking because he had a role and wanted to survive? It was annoying as hell, but I can tell you that he wasn't targeted by J@nr0k for anything but a frame. Both players knew they were in the game, so I didn't want to influence the outcome by ending their charades..

So instead of giving the village a chance, you let the mafia take control 100%. There's not influencing the game, and then there's giving the village a snowball's chance, because the only way the village was going to win by that point was if J@nrok came out and said he was mafia and voted for himself.

For the record, I wouldn't have posted even if I was prodded. I was waiting to post on the last day, but I was lynched before I had a chance to post. The outcome would have been the same if I was prodded.

If people forget that they're in the game then that's their fault, not the host's.

Topsummoner · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 11:43 am

Jackstick wrote:

Topsummoner wrote:

I'm going to clear this up right here now that we're all on the same foot then.

Prodding =/= Forcing a player to vote

It's a PM from the host reminding a player that they are in the game. A player being prodded must respond to the host, then the host will post in the topic about whether the player has 'responded' to the prod or not.

This prevents lurking but at the same time does not 'force' a player to post.

I wouldn't want that. Tbh I had completely forgotten that I was in this game until Tweedy reminded me. I saw that I was one of the few players remaining, and that really surprised me because people just love killing me. I kept quiet hoping that people would still think that I forgot about this game, so that I could stay alive longer. I was planning to post on the last day, but I got lynched before I was even able to check the topic.

Of course you wouldn't want that because you were using lurking as a strategy. In what way does it make sense to encourage a strategy of 'not do anything'?

Prodding is a good way to crack down on lurking as a strategy, because if someone responds to a prod yet STILL doesn't post in the topic, then it's confirmed that they're lurking and haven't forgotten about the game.

DragonCrusher1 wrote:

No posts are to be removed nor edited in Mafia, as long as the rules of RV are not broken.
Ever

Even if the player reveals information AFTER their death?

bluecoat wrote:

On the topic of prodding: I didn't want to prod because I didn't want to make anyone post. I knew J@nr0k was checking, I figured Jackstick was just being Jackstick. Lurking is annoying as hell, but for J@nr0k it served a purpose, as it did for Jack. What if Jackstick was lurking because he had a role and wanted to survive? It was annoying as hell, but I can tell you that he wasn't targeted by J@nr0k for anything but a frame. Both players knew they were in the game, so I didn't want to influence the outcome by ending their charades.

Again, why are we encouraging lurking?

Topsummoner · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 11:44 am

Oh and one more thing, prodding would've totally fit this game's theme. Sheep? Cattleprod? Come on, priceless.

Jackstick · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 11:50 am

What's wrong with lurking?

I probably survived for as long as I did because people thought that I had forgotten about the game (which I had until Tweedy reminded me). I wouldn't mind getting a prod, but I wouldn't want the host to say something along the lines of "Okay, Jackstick has not forgotten about the game. He's just lurking. Carry on."

If people knew that I was lurking, then something like this would have happened a lot earlier in the game:

- Hmm, Jackstick is lurking
- ....but why?
- Aha, he must be mafia!
- Jackstick

PenguinGuy · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 12:59 pm

Jackstick wrote:

What's wrong with lurking?

It's like in a game of tag, hiding in the most unreachable place just so you can win. In my opinion, Lurking shows no skill.

DragonCrusher1 wrote:

No offense to you, Penguin, but I would rather see a legend+ host once again.

The past few games have shown a severe lack of interest in hosting, lack of effort put into hosting, and a lack of enforcement of the rules, and as such, I doubt things would improve with the path they are going down now.

Along with what was said, you have to remember, mods were once just registered users. Just because you're not a legend doesn't mean you can't care about the game.

Thyker · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 3:07 pm

PenguinGuy wrote:

Along with what was said, you have to remember, mods were once just registered users. Just because you're not a legend doesn't mean you can't care about the game.

His point is that Legends forum is where it was for much longer before it was in RP&L. And the legends games are MUCH different from what I've heard, most hosts showing a bit more interest in their priveleges in being allowed to host and post a bit more than just "Oh, so and so is dead, day starts, it ends whenever I feel like" especially if they are going with a plot gimmick.

That's not to say that Normal users can't do that, but so far not many have shown it, if any.

Topsummoner wrote:

Even if the player reveals information AFTER their death?

From what I was told, the post was something along the lines of deathtide saying he stole paidea's role, which was the tracker, blue figured this might've done something against my current roleclaim of detective.

Personally, I think the post should've stayed. But I also don't think ODP's should exist in the first place.

PenguinGuy wrote:

Jackstick wrote:

What's wrong with lurking?

It's like in a game of tag, hiding in the most unreachable place just so you can win. In my opinion, Lurking shows no skill.

You're ignoring the fact that he is Jackstick, he's completely right in that he would've died much earlier had he posted more. Also, he didnt really hide in an unreachable place to win considering he didn't win. I'm not going to say much beyond that because Jack should be the one defending himself.

Landerpurex · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Thyker wrote:

Topsummoner wrote:

Even if the player reveals information AFTER their death?

From what I was told, the post was something along the lines of deathtide saying he stole paidea's role, which was the tracker, blue figured this might've done something against my current roleclaim of detective.

I think that's what I was trying to say. I would never condone the deletion or alteration of anything that happens in the game while said person saying whatever is alive, but he was very dead and still posting information crucial to the game. It warranted deletion.

Topsummoner · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 3:39 pm

Jackstick wrote:

If people knew that I was lurking, then something like this would have happened a lot earlier in the game:

- Hmm, Jackstick is lurking
- ....but why?
- Aha, he must be mafia!
- Jackstick

Exactly.. This is because lurking IS NOT a pro-town strategy. You're not helping the town win just by staying alive, you're helping the mafia because it's one less person to fool and one more easy target during the day. It's not a strategy that should be promoted, and using it should result in votes from other players.

Hojunhu · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 4:27 pm

Who's hosting next game and where do I sign up to host? :-s

Also, regarding questionable ODPs, just don't allow them.

Scar · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 7:01 pm

Hojunhu wrote:

Also, regarding questionable ODPs, just don't allow them.

I agree completely, especially after seeing what went on with Deathtides in this game.

PenguinGuy · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 8:42 pm

Hojunhu wrote:

Who's hosting next game and where do I sign up to host? :-s

If no one else comes up I will.

Landerpurex · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 8:50 pm

PenguinGuy wrote:

Hojunhu wrote:

Who's hosting next game and where do I sign up to host? :-s

If no one else comes up I will.

You could just let Hoj take this one and you take next, or vice versa...didn't Tahu call one though?

Topsummoner · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 9:09 pm

Landerpurex wrote:

PenguinGuy wrote:

Hojunhu wrote:

Who's hosting next game and where do I sign up to host? :-s

If no one else comes up I will.

You could just let Hoj take this one and you take next, or vice versa...didn't Tahu call one though?

Do you really think that would go well? :-|

Steely Mallon · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 9:19 pm

I've been trying to get my foot in to host for awhile now but I'll probably be doing variant of sorts after Top finishes up the ones he has planned, so I'm happy to wait until after the lot you you have gone.

Anyways, what I meant this post originally to say was, we should probably make a topic to record the order of hosts.

Scar · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 10:47 pm

Steely Mallon wrote:

Anyways, what I meant this post originally to say was, we should probably make a topic to record the order of hosts.

Maybe put it in the winners archive?

Tweedy · **Posted:** November 11th, 2009, 11:16 pm

Jay wrote:

So instead of giving the village a chance, you let the mafia take control 100%. There's not influencing the game, and then there's giving the village a snowball's chance, because the only way the village was going to win by that point was if J@nrok came out and said he was mafia and voted for himself.

And similar sentiments have been expressed by Top ("why are we encouraging lurking"). I quite like using prods if somebody hasn't posted for a certain length of time (2 game days?) but it's up to the host's discretion. But to say that the failure to prod swung the game in favour of the mafia, that's drawing a very long bow. It's the village's job to identify the mafia, not the host's.

Topsummoner wrote:

Exactly.. This is because lurking IS NOT a pro-town strategy. You're not helping the town win just by staying alive, you're helping the mafia because it's one less person to fool and one more easy target during the day. It's not a strategy that should be promoted, and using it should result in votes from other players.

QFT. If you sign up and you're a villager, then by not posting you're basically becoming another mafia member AND making it easier for the mafia to hide.

As far as hosting goes, I have no objection to a non-legend hosting, but I do think it'd be helpful to arrange a list of forthcoming hosts as Steely stated (I seem to recall that there was one but nobody seems to remember it). So far Pengu, Hojunhu and Steely have all expressed an interest in hosting...I'm sure I'm forgetting someone though.

Dr Henry · **Posted:** November 12th, 2009, 9:15 am

I don't mind who hosts but, considering I've missed the last two mafias by not checking the new topics in this forum at the right time, I merely ask that whoever the host is, either send me a message or SIGN ME UP.

Mafia 2 GAME OVER, WOLVES AND THE JERK WIN

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