All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic   Page 1 of 2
 [ 28 posts ] 
Go to page: 1, 2  Next »  Page:
Author Message

 Post subject: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Costs
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 11:29 am 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
From: http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/08/09/medicare-actuary-obamacare-will-triple-the-growth-rate-of-net-insurance-costs/

Quote:
Remember when the President promised that Obamacare would reduce the cost of health insurance? “Under [our] plan, if you like your current health insurance, nothing changes, except your costs will go down by as much as $2,500 per year,” said Obama in 2008. The law, like Romneycare in Massachusetts, would magically eliminate the mythical “free-rider problem” by massively subsidizing health spending for the lower middle class.

Well, the Office of the Actuary in the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services recently put out its annual projections of national health care spending. And, contrary to the President, the actuaries find that Obamacare will dramatically increase the near-term growth rate of health care costs. In 2014, the actuaries find that growth in the net cost of health insurance will increase by nearly 14 percent, compared to 3.5% if PPACA had never passed. The growth rate of private insurance premiums will rise to 9.4 percent, from 5.0 percent under prior law: an 88% increase.

Here is a chart that the Office of the Actuary published in the July 2011 issue of Health Affairs. The blue bars represent the Office’s projected spending growth under prior law, and the red bars represent the growth under Obamacare:

Image

The Office of the Actuary does project that growth in private premiums will moderate a bit after 2014, but for reasons the Obama administration won’t like, given its recent harassment of McKinsey & Co.:

For 2015–20, growth in private health insurance premiums is expected to slow somewhat and average 5.6 percent annually. Underlying this expectation is that some employers of low-wage workers will stop offering health coverage (and many of their employees will move to the exchange plans, while others move into Medicaid or become uninsured).

There is another provision of PPACA that the Office of the Actuary believes will help reduce health spending: the “Cadillac tax” on high-cost insurance plans, which comes into effect in 2018. As I’ve written many times, a law that solely consisted of equalizing the tax treatment of employer-sponsored and individually-purchased health plans would have done more for health reform than the entirety of Obamacare.

Unfortunately, that’s not how it played out. Instead, we doubled down on a failed system of subsidies, mandates, and controls. Encouraging more health spending is not the way to curb its growth. As P.J. O’Rourke memorably put it in 1993, “If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free.”


You mean to tell me that a government solution didn't solve anything?! :wut:

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 12:19 pm 
Hai
Champion of Saradomin
Champion of Saradomin
User avatar

Joined: December 28th, 2003, 4:57 pm
Posts: 11,371
Location: New York
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
While it's obviously not a good thing that the cost of healthcare is predicted to increase over the next few years, it's still just a prediction. Even if it does prove to be more expensive, it will still most likely increase the percentage of the population that has access to healthcare. That is at least partly a victory.

Also, government-sponsored healthcare isn't a new idea: http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view ... eID=004182

:-s bartoron :-s

__________________
Image
Image
Image


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 12:44 pm 
i praise feist
Sorceror of Saradomin
Sorceror of Saradomin
User avatar

Joined: October 8th, 2004, 4:18 pm
Posts: 3,609
Location: Over the horizon.
Status: Offline
You mean when Fox News passed the memo to call Obama's health care reform as ObamaCare, people outside of Fox News actually listened? Sorry, I can't take some of you seriously.

__________________
Image
Props to steve-loser on the old sig.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 1:02 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
Regulus wrote:
You mean when Fox News passed the memo to call Obama's health care reform as ObamaCare, people outside of Fox News actually listened? Sorry, I can't take some of you seriously.


A clever name should not be what you dismiss something for. Read deeper.

bartoron wrote:
While it's obviously not a good thing that the cost of healthcare is predicted to increase over the next few years, it's still just a prediction. Even if it does prove to be more expensive, it will still most likely increase the percentage of the population that has access to healthcare. That is at least partly a victory.

Also, government-sponsored healthcare isn't a new idea: http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view ... eID=004182

:-s bartoron :-s


Oh, so predictions with solid reasoning behind them are dismissable because they're just predictions? Alright then, I'll dismiss any Leftist predictions that show just how evil and/or terrible a conversative idea is and how wonderful and right a liberal idea is. They're just predictions, right?

Even if your goal is to increase the percentage of the population that has access to healthcare (which is not a right, might I add), it is not a victory. People are forced to have health insurance. That is correct, because you are still inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide, you are required to be in possession of a product by 2014, regardless of your own personal desire to have it or not.

I am aware that government-sponsored healthcare is not a new idea. That doesn't mean anything, because it's still a bad idea.

Hey, here's an idea! How about our wonderful, benevolent rulers in Washington be the testbed for their own product? In fact, just do that and keep it that way. I don't want it.

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 1:35 pm 
Jess
Village Legend
Village Legend
User avatar

Joined: December 5th, 2003, 8:01 am
Posts: 3,745
Location: Ohio
Gender: Female
Status: Offline

Donor: Princess (2009)
Friend of Hiker
Snake1235 wrote:
Even if your goal is to increase the percentage of the population that has access to healthcare (which is not a right, might I add)


Why shouldn't it be a right, who are you to say that someone doesn't deserve to live a healthy life just because they can't afford a certain procedure, or some kind of medicine?

__________________
Image


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 1:57 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
Scar wrote:
Snake1235 wrote:
Even if your goal is to increase the percentage of the population that has access to healthcare (which is not a right, might I add)


Why shouldn't it be a right, who are you to say that someone doesn't deserve to live a healthy life just because they can't afford a certain procedure, or some kind of medicine?


Thank you for creating a straw man argument to paint me as some selfish, evil person.

Who is the government to say private insurance isn't good enough? Who is the government to say I have to help pay for everyone's coverage, when that includes millions and millions of people who have chosen poor lifestyle choices and are now suffering because of their own choices? Who are you to say that any random person has the right to get a service from a doctor who did not get his medical training and knowledge for free? Who are you to say people deserve free stuff at all? Who is the government to say I am required to have a product I may or may not want at the moment?

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 2:19 pm 
Page
Page

Joined: August 8th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Posts: 54
Status: Offline
Millions of new people on the rosters? This isn't exactly a surprise, but I'm not sure it means what you think it means.

I agree that people should not have to acquire health insurance.

__________________
Quit calling me names.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 2:49 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
LondonLooter wrote:
Millions of new people on the rosters? This isn't exactly a surprise, but I'm not sure it means what you think it means.


What I think and know it means is that younger people who decide not to get insurance for whatever their own reason is (usually lack of need/desire).

Another repercussion of this health care law is that companies may not have the incentive or the ability to afford to keep their employees on the company healthcare plan. Oftentimes, a job doesn't just pay with money; it pays with benefits as well. The company insurance may have been better and more affordable before this law took affect. That would sure be wonderful to lose benefits that come with your job, wouldn't it?

More people are on healthcare, though, so oh well. Just ignore the details. What a victory!

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 3:00 pm 
Page
Page

Joined: August 8th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Posts: 54
Status: Offline
I'm not ignoring anything, and I do agree with you that people should not have to acquire health insurance if they do not want it. Take off your blinders and pay attention to what I am actually saying, please.

__________________
Quit calling me names.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 3:18 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
LondonLooter wrote:
I'm not ignoring anything, and I do agree with you that people should not have to acquire health insurance if they do not want it. Take off your blinders and pay attention to what I am actually saying, please.


I'm glad you agree that people should not have to acquire health insurance if they don't want it.

To clear things up, I wasn't saying you were ignoring the details. That was rhetorical and aimed at anyone who does ignore the details and insist that more people on healthcare is automatically a win/win situation.

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 3:36 pm 
Page
Page

Joined: August 8th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Posts: 54
Status: Offline
Snake1235 wrote:
LondonLooter wrote:
I'm not ignoring anything, and I do agree with you that people should not have to acquire health insurance if they do not want it. Take off your blinders and pay attention to what I am actually saying, please.


I'm glad you agree that people should not have to acquire health insurance if they don't want it.

To clear things up, I wasn't saying you were ignoring the details. That was rhetorical and aimed at anyone who does ignore the details and insist that more people on healthcare is automatically a win/win situation.


I'm glad you cleared that up. It's more enjoyable talking to you when you aren't badmouthing me. :P

What do you think of the projected 14% growth in net insurance costs? Why do you suppose they will increase so much, and what will it mean to the average buyer of insurance?

__________________
Quit calling me names.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 4:01 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
Why will it grow so much? I'm still trying to figure exactly that out, but the system is complicated with a 2,000 page bill that few people have read, including the people who passed it. :P I would assume part of it would come from taxes involved in the bill. Perhaps basic elements of supply and demand might even be involved in the many steps of the complicated process.

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 4:08 pm 
Page
Page

Joined: August 8th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Posts: 54
Status: Offline
Snake1235 wrote:
Why will it grow so much? I'm still trying to figure exactly that out, but the system is complicated with a 2,000 page bill that few people have read, including the people who passed it. :P I would assume part of it would come from taxes involved in the bill. Perhaps basic elements of supply and demand might even be involved.


Well, it's not that complicated. The reasons are posted in one of the links in the article you posted. I was just trying to gauge how familiar you are with this issue.

Quote:
↵e Net cost of health insurance is calculated as the difference between calendar year premiums earned and benefits paid for private health insurance. This includes administrative costs, and in some cases, additions to reserves; rate credits and dividends; premium taxes; and plan profits or losses. Also included in this category is the difference between premiums earned and benefits paid for the private health insurance companies that insure the enrollees of the following public programs: Medicare, Medicaid, Children’s Health Insurance Program, and workers’ compensation (health portion only).


In other words, the projected 14% increase in net health insurance costs is a decrease in what the government expects the insurers' combined ratios to be. It has nothing to do with actual treatment costs; rather, it reflects that many more premiums will be collected than will benefits be paid. To put it another way, it's because the government thinks private health insurance companies are going to be extremely profitable in 2014.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/conten ... nsion.html

Edited: Fixed a spelling error.

__________________
Quit calling me names.


Last edited by LondonLooter on August 10th, 2011, 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 4:16 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
Very good point. I would have imagined an increase in coverage to lead to more demand in goods and services involved in the entire healthcare industry, which the supply would have to adjust to to reach equilibrium. If supply were not adjusted enough, price would go up.

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 4:24 pm 
Page
Page

Joined: August 8th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Posts: 54
Status: Offline
Snake1235 wrote:
Very good point. I would have imagined an increase in coverage to lead to more demand in goods and services involved in the entire healthcare industry, which the supply would have to adjust to to reach equilibrium. If supply were not adjusted enough, price would go up.


Well, what it tells is that the guy who wrote the article really has no clue what he's talking about, because he's comparing apples to oranges. The reason for the net costs increasing is because the government expects less usage of medical treatments relative to the increase in premiums earned.

__________________
Quit calling me names.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 4:36 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
I fail to see how this invalidates what the article is saying.

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 4:52 pm 
Page
Page

Joined: August 8th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Posts: 54
Status: Offline
Snake1235 wrote:
I fail to see how this invalidates what the article is saying.


Well, he gets his numbers wrong, first of all. He says that without PPACA, growth in net costs would have been 3.5%. That is inaccurate, and it appears that he just went off of the chart instead of digging deeper in to the actual document he linked to. It's the third page down from the text, table two. Without the PPACA, growth was projected to be 4.5%. That is not a massive difference, but for a journalist on such a high profile site to make that mistake is appalling. It is amateur hour at Forbes. I hope that they will issue a correction shortly.

Second, the costs aren't real costs, growth in average premiums paid, or any other such thing. All that it says is that the government expects 2014 to be a blockbuster year for health insurance companies. It does not signify more hospital visits, more trips to the clinic, more pills sold, or any other such thing. It doesn't demonstrate that any actual treatment costs will increase (though they may well), all it says is that the private insurance companies are going to keep more of every dollar of revenue as profit for themselves.

What this does demonstrate is that actual treatment costs are going to decline as a percentage of insurance companies' premiums received. The government expects their combined ratio to shoot through the floor, and that probably isn't coming from administrative. Their loss ratios will be even better, if the government is right about this. Afterwards, their profits will fall back more towards historical levels.

That is all this says. It says nothing about how much a physician will receive per visit, it says nothing about the costs of Dendreon's new cancer treatment, it says nothing about the costs of a hospital visit. Nothing. And if the government is right, it'll be such an outlier that it'll be basically irrelevant. Take a look at that article he linked to at the Health Affairs website. Or better yet, I'll just quote it here.

Quote:
Average annual growth in national health spending is expected to be 0.1 percentage point higher (5.8 percent) under current law compared to projected average growth prior to the passage of the Affordable Care Act (5.7 percent) for 2010 through 2020. Simultaneously, by 2020, nearly thirty million Americans are expected to gain health insurance coverage as a result of the Affordable Care Act.


Get that? Total annual growth in national health spending, as a result of the PPACA, is going to be one-tenth of one percent higher than it would have otherwise been, if these projections are correct. Will they be? I doubt it, it's nearly impossible to correctly forecast so far into the future. Based on the projects, though, this isn't nearly as doom-and-gloom as the author of this article makes it sound.

__________________
Quit calling me names.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 5:17 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
I'm skeptical that the premiums are the only things being factored in here.

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 5:28 pm 
Page
Page

Joined: August 8th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Posts: 54
Status: Offline
Snake1235 wrote:
I'm skeptical that the premiums are the only things being factored in here.


No, it's not just premiums. It's premiums - benefits, just as explained in the footnotes that I linked you to and I explained multiple times. If you do not agree with me, look for yourself. It's all there. None of it is hidden; it's all explained. It even shows that PPACA will only grow national health spending, on average, by one-tenth of one percent per year. It's basically a rounding error.

I am surprised that for a guy who blasts the media so much and apparently thinks that people listen to it like sheep, that you are unwilling to accept the reality of what the projections say. If you had followed your own advice, ignored the media, and dug into the source content, you'd have found out that the article you linked us to is very misleading. I am not trying to be mean, I just think that you're denying reality at this point because it doesn't agree with your political views. The projections may well be wrong, in fact, I suspect they will be. However, and I quote,

Quote:
Oh, so predictions with solid reasoning behind them are dismissable because they're just predictions? Alright then, I'll dismiss any Leftist predictions that show just how evil and/or terrible a conversative idea is and how wonderful and right a liberal idea is. They're just predictions, right?


I disagree with the PPACA on an ideological basis, but that doesn't mean I'm going to make up stories about it and try to purposely mislead people about its effect on health care costs. Once again, I will quote and link you to the methodology.

Quote:
Net cost of health insurance is calculated as the difference between calendar year premiums earned and benefits paid for private health insurance. This includes administrative costs, and in some cases, additions to reserves; rate credits and dividends; premium taxes; and plan profits or losses. Also included in this category is the difference between premiums earned and benefits paid for the private health insurance companies that insure the enrollees of the following public programs: Medicare, Medicaid, Children’s Health Insurance Program, and workers’ compensation (health portion only).


Take your time to review it, please. You have your blinders on again, and it's not doing our side any good by sponsoring misinformation that takes about five minutes of research to find out the truth about.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/conten ... nsion.html

__________________
Quit calling me names.


Top
 Profile
 

 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare to Triple the Growth Rate of Net Insurance Cos
PostPosted: August 10th, 2011, 6:09 pm 
Supreme Overlord
Village Elder
Village Elder
User avatar

Joined: August 2nd, 2003, 12:09 pm
Posts: 5,615
Location: The mods' inky shadows, watching you all with my panel of assorted smite buttons
Gender: Male
Status: Offline
LondonLooter wrote:
What this does demonstrate is that actual treatment costs are going to decline as a percentage of insurance companies' premiums received. The government expects their combined ratio to shoot through the floor, and that probably isn't coming from administrative. Their loss ratios will be even better, if the government is right about this. Afterwards, their profits will fall back more towards historical levels.


The bold/italicized part should be explained. From what I can tell, net costs will increase drastically the first year of full implementation and then level out at a new rate. Where do things go back to historical levels? Where is the decrease, and how? Profits may go back to historical levels if you are talking about them maintaining the older profit margin, but that doesn't mean the costs and revenues are the same. If everything would go back to 'historical levels', then it strikes me as an income redistribution tactic and a way to spread around the quality care that a lot of people get to more people using the same amount of resources. If that is the case, the quality will drop as the resources get stretched thinner.

Additionally, I don't believe for one moment that the increased taxes and regulation will lead to that projected 0.1% increase in net costs annually. That's ridiculously low for such an impacting bill. If it were that little of a deal, the private sector wouldn't have lobbied against it so much. Keep in mind that approximately 20 million illegal immigrants live here, too.

I also laughed at the parts where the document expects the economy to be doing swimmingly by the time this thing takes effect, as if the projections were made with certainty that the brilliant financial experts in Washington were right all along that their strategies would fix the general economy.

Even still, this thing was sold under the idea that it would make the healthcare system more efficient, effective, and cheaper. I smell a lie, as nowhere have I seen costs decrease. More parties involved in the system typically leads to an increase in how expensive the overall system is. The government is another party getting into things.

__________________
Image
I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.


Top
 Profile
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
 [ 28 posts ] 
Go to page: 1, 2  Next »  Page:

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
The Village and this web site are © 2002-2012

ThePub 2.0 - Designed by Goten & Jackstick. Coded by Glodenox & Henner.
With many thanks to the Website Team!