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 Post subject: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 3:00 pm 
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Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground last week because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.

Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

"They could have been saved if they had put water on it, but they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC's Keith Olbermann.

The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond.

"We wasn't on their list," he said the operators told him.
Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he "forgot" to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee.

Cranick says he told the operator he would pay whatever is necessary to have the fire put out.
His offer wasn't accepted, he said.
The fire fee policy dates back 20 or so years.

"Anybody that's not inside the city limits of South Fulton, it's a service we offer. Either they accept it or they don't," said South Fulton Mayor David Crocker.

The fire department's decision to let the home burn was "incredibly irresponsible," said the president of an association representing firefighters.
"Professional, career firefighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up," Harold Schaitberger, International Association of Fire Fighters president, said in a statement. "They get in their trucks and go."
Firefighters did eventually show up, but only to fight the fire on the neighboring property, whose owner had paid the fee.

"They put water out on the fence line out here. They never said nothing to me. Never acknowledged. They stood out here and watched it burn," Cranick said.
South Fulton's mayor said that the fire department can't let homeowners pay the fee on the spot, because the only people who would pay would be those whose homes are on fire.

Cranick, who is now living in a trailer on his property, says his insurance policy will help cover some of his lost home.
"Insurance is going to pay for what money I had on the policy, looks like. But like everything else, I didn't have enough."

After the blaze, South Fulton police arrested one of Cranick's sons, Timothy Allen Cranick, on an aggravated assault charge, according to WPSD-TV, an NBC station in Paducah, Ky.
Police told WPSD that the younger Cranick attacked Fire Chief David Wilds at the firehouse because he was upset his father's house was allowed to burn.

WPSD-TV reported that Wilds was treated and released.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/


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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 3:43 pm 
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That's just terrible. Especially since he said he'd pay it if they came out to fight it. What a stupid policy.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 3:57 pm 
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I've never even heard of this until now. It really takes a fee for us to not have our homes burned down?

Though I guess this does explain the news' quoting people abut this story. :\

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 4:49 pm 
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So let me get this straight. Not only did they let a house burn over an unpaid fee, but that fee was a lousy $75?! This is disgusting, and the fire chief should be fired and jailed for this negligence and refusal to do his job. This is is unprofessional and unethical.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 4:57 pm 
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That's pretty pathetic. Not only were there possessions at stake there, what if there more than just 3 dogs and a cat in there? What if there were children? Elderly? Hell, what if there were infants in there? The firefighting force should be charged with negligence and destruction of property...

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 6:47 pm 
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Gonna play devils advocate. If they go and fight this fire, then nobody ever pays their fees from there on out. How about a little personal responsibility? In this case, fire service was essentially the same as an insurance policy, and these people chose to gamble, and lost. Definitely a sad story, I think the result will be that those who choose not to pay for the service will still be served, but there will be a large (~10k) fee assessed after the fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 8:21 pm 
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I've heard similar stories to this and like Apple said, that's what happens. If people just figure they'll pay it if anything happens, then the firefighters can't keep people hired on. Nor can you keep a fleet of even one vehicle maintained on a lottery of maybe 75 bucks every month or so...

Is it terrible it happened, sure, but when you don't have a municipal firedepartment that's funded well, you need to basically support it with donations. If their fire department goes bankrupt, then what... nobody has protection.

I suppose what they really should do is make the 'emergency fee' so great and backbreaking that nobody would dare risk a fire and just pay the 75 instead. Sadly you have to draw the line somewhere. Trucks don't run off of good intentions.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 8:35 pm 
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what happens if a person is stuck in the house when its on fire, do the fire fighters just let them die because they never got there 75$, Also not putting the fire out gives it more of a chance to spred to other homes like it did.

If you ask me the 75$ should be added to a town tax or have a system where u pay 75$ a month or 1000$ when they come out.

yay for living in the uk where all these bills are covered in our tax

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 9:19 pm 
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That's sickening. I wouldn't care if they didn't pay, JUST PUT OUT THE DAMN FIRE YOU MORONS.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 9:26 pm 
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Znath wrote:
I suppose what they really should do is make the 'emergency fee' so great and backbreaking that nobody would dare risk a fire and just pay the 75 instead.


I agree with this. Put the fire out, then worry about money, and make it a ridiculously high payment so that they never make this mistake again. I'd take that deal, I don't care... I'd pay $5,000 for my stupid mistake if it meant saving my house.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 9th, 2010, 11:06 pm 
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yay for living in the uk where all these bills are covered in our tax


Um well if you read the article this is in a rather rural area as in a town so small taxes can't support a fire department.

In larger cities, the fire department is, as I mentioned, a municipality covered by fees everyone within the city to pay.

In small towns and areas too remote to support a full fledged department, it's often volunteers who operate the rural area fire truck. So the residents of the small towns and houses/businesses in the area pay these fees to fund keeping the truck maintained and everything, maybe even hire somebody to be full time,... usually not. To give the UK people an idea of how remote some of these areas of the US can be, we're talking maybe one paved road, mostly gravel roads, you're lucky to see your neighbors houses from your own. Some of the towns which have these pay-in volunteer fire departments have MAYBE 1000 people in them, and these departments have to cover like a 40x40 mile area dotted with farm houses and stuff like that.

So it's not like a house in the middle of downtown Washington D.C. caught fire and they refused to put it out. It's more like, your next door neighbor 4 miles away has a fire truck that he'll put out fires for 75 bucks, but not if you don't pay insurance in advance. Otherwise he'll have to sell the truck and nobody gets fire protection.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 10th, 2010, 2:52 am 
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Znath wrote:
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yay for living in the uk where all these bills are covered in our tax


Um well if you read the article this is in a rather rural area as in a town so small taxes can't support a fire department.

In larger cities, the fire department is, as I mentioned, a municipality covered by fees everyone within the city to pay.

In small towns and areas too remote to support a full fledged department, it's often volunteers who operate the rural area fire truck. So the residents of the small towns and houses/businesses in the area pay these fees to fund keeping the truck maintained and everything, maybe even hire somebody to be full time,... usually not. To give the UK people an idea of how remote some of these areas of the US can be, we're talking maybe one paved road, mostly gravel roads, you're lucky to see your neighbors houses from your own. Some of the towns which have these pay-in volunteer fire departments have MAYBE 1000 people in them, and these departments have to cover like a 40x40 mile area dotted with farm houses and stuff like that.

So it's not like a house in the middle of downtown Washington D.C. caught fire and they refused to put it out. It's more like, your next door neighbor 4 miles away has a fire truck that he'll put out fires for 75 bucks, but not if you don't pay insurance in advance. Otherwise he'll have to sell the truck and nobody gets fire protection.


There are some rural areas in the uk as well, especially in Scotland, the council tax we pay covers most of the local services in our area but the govornment provides support if that isnt enough so even very remote locations have access to free fire services for example john o' Groats at the very top of scotland has its own fire service with a population of only 300:
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Making people pay for lives to be saved, even if they are "just" the lives of animals, is just plain wrong, why isnt the government providing the services needed?

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 10th, 2010, 6:44 am 
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Jack Shephard wrote:
Znath wrote:
I suppose what they really should do is make the 'emergency fee' so great and backbreaking that nobody would dare risk a fire and just pay the 75 instead.


I agree with this. Put the fire out, then worry about money, and make it a ridiculously high payment so that they never make this mistake again. I'd take that deal, I don't care... I'd pay $5,000 for my stupid mistake if it meant saving my house.


This.

If i was a firefighter in that situation id get fired i don't care but ill save those dogs and cats life and at least TRY. Ill even cough up the 75 bucks on the spot. :( I wouldn't leave a family homeless just like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 10th, 2010, 3:16 pm 
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I lived in a town that has this same system. If it's the same as it is there, the area is unincorporated, basically meaning no governmental body has control of a given service. Unless you want to have the county start taxing for this (and in my area, it's been a ridiculous battle just to pass a tax just for basic police services, so good luck with this), private business is the only option, and if they go fighting fires where they're not contracted, nothing stops people from only paying when they actually need it, collapsing the model and meaning there's no fire protection whatsoever.

That said, yeah, they should put in place a huge fee for putting out a fire once it's burning if that house isn't on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 10th, 2010, 3:21 pm 
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I also don't really know how any areas do this kind of thing and it's also kind of hard based on the article to figure out where this took place. The department should really have some kind of punishment contingency plan to entice people to pay the monthly fee rather than refuse outright to put out a fire. As far as I know there aren't any near counties that have this kind of opt-in/out fire protection. By all rights there are even more remote areas of the US than "Obion County". I kind of wonder if it's the whole story given MSNBC's history let alone Keith Olberman...

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 10th, 2010, 5:01 pm 
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Thats so stupid. Fire protection is supposed to be free

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 10th, 2010, 9:05 pm 
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Archbishop of Banana wrote:
Thats so stupid. Fire protection is supposed to be free


No. It's actually part of (usually) your property taxes.

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 10th, 2010, 9:06 pm 
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Frank 4.0.1 wrote:
Archbishop of Banana wrote:
Thats so stupid. Fire protection is supposed to be free


No. It's actually part of (usually) your property taxes.


Free to a certain extent. You don't directly pay for it...

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 10th, 2010, 11:53 pm 
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I think this is a bit out of whack too...

I've lived in areas serviced by volunteer fire departments, and they would never refuse a call... and they don't charge fees... they solict donations, especially from businesses, have pancake breakfasts and spaghetti dinners to raise money and get the job done. Most volunteer fire and rescue squads can actually get grants from the state for equipment, as well as grants from organizations-- for instance i used to work with the march of dimes, and was able to get a grant for our local volunteer rescue squad for a portable isolette for one of their ambulances... (in case you're not familiar with the term, an isolette is what used to be called an 'incubator' and is basically a life-support system for an infant-- pretty expensive piece of equipment)

however, in this case, for what i understand from the story, this was a city fire department in a county where it's unincorporated outside the city limits, and therefore does not have it's own services.

so in this case, the fire trucks are already paid for and the firemen are paid by the city. so if they leave the city, they must recover the cost of operations and wear and tear on their equipment....

but i don't understand why they couldn't accept an on-the-spot payment-- since they are funded by the city, their basic expenses are covered... they are essentially in the position of simply recovering the actual expenses for the city of putting out a single fire. so *why* do they force people to pay in advance for a service they may never use? ... why not just have a set fee for coming out-- say $1000-$1500, or whatever it cost-- and charge them that amount??

and of course, if after the fire the homeowner didn't pay, they could put a lein on his property for the debt...

i'm sure there are better ways to handle it besides watching someone's house burn...

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 Post subject: Re: Firefighters let house burn
PostPosted: October 11th, 2010, 2:04 am 
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Discrimin8 wrote:
Frank 4.0.1 wrote:
Archbishop of Banana wrote:
Thats so stupid. Fire protection is supposed to be free


No. It's actually part of (usually) your property taxes.


Free to a certain extent. You don't directly pay for it...

+1 Their JOB is to put out the fire. neglecting their duties makes the firefighting force look bad

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